We are all not perfect. SO, dear readers, I ask you this: what, since being a feminist, (or if you aren’t a feminist, in the last year or so?) is something you have done that you regret, an opinion you held that you are ashamed of, or part ?
I, folks, downloaded a Girlicious song, “Stupid Shit.”
Really, though. More seriously….before I was super aware of racism, I was playing great part in the oppression olympics, especially early on. And, I really didn’t understand the need for Black History Month, gay pride, etc. So yeah, my privileges were showing. Bad.
You guys?
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June 1, 2008 at 11:42 pm
Amelia
I was a victim-blamer early on. It
s not that I excused rapists completely, but I did think that there were certain things that victims could have done to prevent rape.
Uuuuuuugh. Sickening.
Thankfully I have greatly changed my tune.
June 2, 2008 at 2:28 am
Red Queen
When I was younger- I was one of those exceptionalist girls. You know “I’m not like other girls, they’re too catty, blah blah blah”.
And then I figured out that is just a load of crap fed to girls to keep us from fighting the power together.
(See Ann Coulter, Maureen Dowd, Arriana Huffington for other examples of exceptionalist girls- women who hate other women and will sell them out to get a fake sense of power from the boys)
June 2, 2008 at 2:37 am
cate
I find it hard to not engage with misogynistic pop culture, especially since it seems to be everywhere.
For example, I’ve been reading Chuck Palahniuk’s Snuff, and of a night it sits on my bedside table next to the ever-present copy of Andrea Dworkin’s Letters From a War Zone. Incongruous much? Snuff makes me feel grossly uncomfortable, and is kind of boring and poorly written to boot, but I have this compulsion to finish any book I start, no matter how bad. The view that Palahniuk takes on the porn industry, however, is wrong wrong wrong, in my eyes, and I find this damaging. The fact that I purchased and consumed this book makes me feel complicit in this, and I do feel guilty for reading such a clearly anti-feminism book.
Other examples of this same squirmy guilt that I get from some pop culture include Entourage, which is frequently misogynistic in it’s portrayal of women and it’s blokey humour, and Gossip Girl, particularly the character of Chuck Bass. The whole rapist-with-a-heart-of-gold schtick is pretty gross.
Bah… I don’t like it! When did the misogyny get so blatant??
June 2, 2008 at 2:40 am
goingtomontreal
Cate–I am so with you….I can’t NOT finish a book. I feel even if I don’t like it, it’s still not a waste of time and I gain something from it.
Red Queen–I was EXACTLY LIKE THAT IN HIGH SCHOOL. I thought I was somehow SPECIAL because “I’m not like other girls” blah blah blah. It was really, um, bad for cultivating friendships with women…something I am still smarting from.
June 2, 2008 at 5:43 am
Ryan
I would not even know where to start, seriously. Do not feel too bad about Entourage cate; I cannot help but like it too
June 2, 2008 at 4:26 pm
D
What’s wrong with “not being like other girls”?
An ex of mine once said “I’m not like other girls, I won’t use you, cheat on you, blah blah blah”.
Is that somehow a BAD thing to use to differentiate yourself?
I would think it WOULD make one special, for being better than the rest.
cate: No offense, but I find it odd that in one breath, you can complain about misogyny, while simultaneously mentioning you keep a book by a terrible misandrist on your night table.
June 2, 2008 at 5:48 pm
goingtomontreal
D– I think the problem lies in what you just said “I’m NOT like other girls…because other girls are BAD”
By lumping our whole gender like that…it pits girl against girl.
June 2, 2008 at 5:57 pm
D
D– I think the problem lies in what you just said “I’m NOT like other girls…because other girls are BAD”
By lumping our whole gender like that…it pits girl against girl.
Well, when someone’s experience with “other girls” is generally negative, there’s nothing wrong with saying you aren’t like them.
Also, there’s nothing wrong with pitting “girl against girl”, as you say it.
Plenty of women ARE shit, and not worthy of respect, and I don’t see anything wrong in differentiating yourself from them.
Is it somehow better to say “I’m just like every other girl, and I will screw you over at my earliest possible convenience”?
Plenty of people lump men together as some cohesive cesspit of depravity, and how we’re “all the same”. At least by saying you aren’t like other girls, you’re saying you’re not all the same.
Though, the way you phrase it almost sounds like you’re saying that NO girls are bad. I do hope that’s not what you intended.
June 2, 2008 at 7:18 pm
Red Queen
Well if you really think that all women and girls are shit- then go ahead and say you’re not like them. You will be classing an entire group under a false stereotype, but I’m not going to stop you from playing the “I’m so much better than the other people who are oppressed just like me”.
And you seem to forget that there are humans who are shitty and h8umans who are not. It doesn’t depend on gender.
June 2, 2008 at 7:19 pm
Red Queen
sorry for the typos. I’m trying to type and run off to work at the same time
June 2, 2008 at 7:24 pm
D
As I said, if someone has had primarily negative experiences with women, is it THAT wrong to say you aren’t like the women they’ve had said experiences with?
Considering almost every woman I’ve ever had a personal experience with has been a horrible excuse for a human being, if some woman DIDN’T make some effort at saying she wasn’t like them, I probably would expect her to be exactly like them.
June 2, 2008 at 7:41 pm
Jess
D: uhm, you could say ‘I’m nothing like your ex who broke your heart/killed your dog/stole your money’ and leave out the exceptionalism altogether. The problem with pitting women against women is that women need to support each other rather than seeing each other as traitors or enemies or sluts. When you say ‘I’m not like other men’, you’re not tapping into a dominant ideology of ‘that group is bad/dangerous’, whereas when you say ‘I’m not like other women’, you are. Because when you group people like that, you are agreeing with the stereotype. E.g. ‘I’m not like other blacks’ implies all of the stereotypes of black thuggery/loudness/etc, and ‘I’m not like other asians’ implies that you’re not stingy/intellectually elitist, but ‘I’m not like other whites’ implies all of the stereotypes of whites (the worst of which seems to be ‘whites are racist’.).
Wouldn’t it be soooo much better to say ‘those shitty members of my gender/ethnic/religious group suck and that’s not representative of my group’? (usually heard in feminist comment boards as ‘Not all men are rapists!!1!’). However of course in a very personal setting it might be appropriate to assure a partner who has had very bad experiences with a certain group of people that you are not representative of this sample, ie the subset of those within your group who are bad (although going from the last example, if your girlfriend had been raped and was anxious about sex, would you be more likely to say ‘I’m not like other men’, or ‘The man who raped you was a peice of shit who needs to die, and *real* men aren’t like that, there are just a few shitty people in the world’?
Anyway, to my own sins: Exceptionalism? Tick. Popculture? Tick. Victim-blaming 2.0 (ie Feeling guilty for my sister getting raped because in another universe I would’ve decided to walk home with her rather than catching the bus thereby dissuading her rapist) rather than channelling my rage towards rapists? Tick.
An interesting one is my tendency to think of my boyfriend as pacifiable through sex (to a degree). If we’re having an argument, I think ‘I know what will fix this – a blowjob’. Now, it’s true that sex really does put him in a much better mood, if he hasn’t had any in the last x many hours. But the crucial part is, of course, that _we’re in an argument_, so I have no *intention* of having sex with him; I just use the thought to feel superior. I shouldn’t be essentialist and smug.
June 2, 2008 at 7:49 pm
Jess
D: “if some woman DIDN’T make some effort at saying she wasn’t like them, I probably would expect her to be exactly like them.”
Er… wouldn’t it be much wiser to judge someone’s character on basis of how they act and talk, rather than what they claim to be like? Or does this need for group rejection stem from the woman’s agreeing with your negative experience of other women (i.e. ‘wow here’s a chick who really understands me! she knows exactly how horrible chicks can be, and doesn’t pretend they are innocents!’
June 2, 2008 at 8:27 pm
D
When you say ‘I’m not like other men’, you’re not tapping into a dominant ideology of ‘that group is bad/dangerous’
Bull. The dominant opinion being “men are cheaters/losers/scumbags/inconsiderate of your feelings/heartless/cold/abusive”.
if your girlfriend had been raped and was anxious about sex, would you be more likely to say ‘I’m not like other men’, or ‘The man who raped you was a peice of shit who needs to die, and *real* men aren’t like that, there are just a few shitty people in the world’?
I usually don’t respond to hypothetical questions that are never going to occur in real life.
Er… wouldn’t it be much wiser to judge someone’s character on basis of how they act and talk, rather than what they claim to be like? Or does this need for group rejection stem from the woman’s agreeing with your negative experience of other women (i.e. ‘wow here’s a chick who really understands me! she knows exactly how horrible chicks can be, and doesn’t pretend they are innocents!’
I find it more efficient to hold people guilty until proven innocent. Sounds harsh, but it’s overall safer for me, and healthier to do so.
And yes, something of it is that it’s nice to see a woman that agrees that the behaviour of her peers is unacceptable, unjustified, not respectable, and definitely not something to emulate.
Pretending women are innocent, or that they’re only “bad” in response to Those Evil Men is ridiculous and insulting.
June 2, 2008 at 9:05 pm
Red Queen
D- I have been primarily street harassed by men of color. My child was recently violently robbed by three men of color. And yet I understand that not all black men are violent misogynists – even if I’ve had some extremely bad associations with some of them. Because I am not a racist.
You are showing some serious levels of both privilege and niavete. If you want a chick who will bash on other chicks with you- fine. But when she grows out of her exceptionalist phase, she is going to see you as a budding mra nut who hates all those skanky bitches. Because you are a sexist.
Judge people on their own merit. The world does not revolve around you and your own hurt.
June 2, 2008 at 9:21 pm
D
You are showing some serious levels of both privilege and niavete. If you want a chick who will bash on other chicks with you- fine. But when she grows out of her exceptionalist phase, she is going to see you as a budding mra nut who hates all those skanky bitches. Because you are a sexist.
First off, what “privilege”? Do explain. It’s “privilege” for me to (gasp) want women to be decent human beings? You’re right, how crazy of me.
Secondly, again, your whole logic of “women must unite to stop those evil menz” is rather sexist of you.
Apparently, you must believe that women should be free to be as horrible as possible to men, and anyone that dare question that is sexist, and another woman should NEVER say anything against a woman that treats people like crap?
It’s not “exceptionalist” to have bad things to say about bad people. Sorry if you think being a woman is some creepy sisterhood with a secret handshake, or whatnot. But that statement doesn’t reconcile with your “some HUMANS are shitty” statement.
Also, normal people off the internet don’t think of people in terms of “mra nut”. Most people wouldn’t even know e-feminist slang if it bit them on the head.
Also, no, I don’t want any “chick”. I’ve long since passed the point of desiring to waste my time on them outside of the capacity of friendship.
It’s just odd that you’d think it somehow wrong for a woman to point out that something another woman did was bad.
Or are you one of those “budding wra nuts” that think women are innocent and can do no wrong?
Judge people on their own merit. The world does not revolve around you and your own hurt.
Might say the same to you. I judge people how I please, because the world does not revolve around you and what you demand people do.
If you don’t like it, don’t associate with me. Seems simple, no?
June 2, 2008 at 9:23 pm
D
Forgot to add:
Because you are a sexist.
It’s not up to you to define me. How terribly rude and presumptuous of you.
When a woman is raped, and therefore trusts men much less, does that make her sexist? No?
I’m allowed to do whatever is best for my own life, and if that means keeping women at arm’s length, because women have been the primary source of conflict in my life, that’s my own business.
Doesn’t mean I’m sexist, perhaps it means you need to have a stern talk with your gender and cause them to stop doing the things they do?
June 2, 2008 at 9:27 pm
goingtomontreal
D–
Bad people is different than bad women. And uniting as women has nothing to do with battling teh evil menz…but there are experiences unique to women that I think merits meaningful relationships with other women. That’s the whole point. It’s about breaking away from gender fueled stereotypes….yes, ex girlfriends may have been shitty people…but it shouldn’t condemn the whole gender. It’s the same as black people who commit crimes–they should be the ones to define a race. And so on.
June 2, 2008 at 9:35 pm
D
Point is, acting as though “bad women” aren’t really bad, and that women should never condemn the actions of their peers…is ridiculous.
If a woman does something terrible, she’s basically saying that it’s wrong for another woman to say “What she did was bad”. That it would be “exceptionalist”, and that any (male) person that points out that she did something bad, is therefore “an mra nut” and “sexist”.
And again, if pretty much every bad thing in a person’s life was sourced with a woman, and no bad things sourced from a male, what then? Should I instead say “Women are f’n great, and never do anything wrong!”?
Again, if a woman is mistreated/beaten/raped by a male, and therefore becomes much less trusting of men as a whole because of her experience with that male, does that make her sexist?
I’m allowed to make my own judgements on people as I see fit. That’s just life. People are inherently subjective with their viewpoints. When the good females I experience interaction with outweigh the bad, my viewpoint of “guilty until innocent” might change.
But I don’t see those things as likely.
June 2, 2008 at 11:14 pm
Jess
D. My hypothetical (although often real) question was designed to make you question whether you would trash-talk your entire gender after recognizing that one of them did something bad – as women often do, and are expected to do – or whether you would metaphorically eject them from your gender OR alternatively not make gender the focus.
‘Doesn’t mean I’m sexist, perhaps it means you need to have a stern talk with your gender and cause them to stop doing the things they do?’
What’s ‘Poe’s Law’ for feminism? Is it just ‘Feminist Bingo’? Whatever it is, I call it.
June 3, 2008 at 12:27 am
D
D. My hypothetical (although often real) question was designed to make you question whether you would trash-talk your entire gender after recognizing that one of them did something bad – as women often do, and are expected to do – or whether you would metaphorically eject them from your gender OR alternatively not make gender the focus.
I understood it’s purpose. It’s simply as I said. I do not answer hypothetical questions based on things that will never happen in my life.
What’s ‘Poe’s Law’ for feminism? Is it just ‘Feminist Bingo’? Whatever it is, I call it.
Apparently I’m not keen on e-slang.
June 6, 2008 at 6:20 am
cyn
My unfeminist (and, sometimes, anti-size positive) guilty pleasure is Style By Jury. Tho today I saw an episode where an artist refused to get “daVinci Veneers”. I fucking cheered.
I call my friends “bitches”. In the positive way you call a woman who knows her rights and defends them. Anyway, some feminist still find it offensive, so.
Sometimes I call someone a “twat” or a “cunt” when they are terrible people. Our vaginas don’t deserve to be compared to these people. Maybe I should just make up swear words from now on.
June 6, 2008 at 2:06 pm
D
Sometimes I call someone a “twat” or a “cunt” when they are terrible people. Our vaginas don’t deserve to be compared to these people. Maybe I should just make up swear words from now on.
Why is there such uproar among feminists over the use of “twat” and “cunt”, but feminists will freely spit out “dick”, “cock”, “dickhead” as insults to men?
Go figure.
June 6, 2008 at 11:04 pm
feministgal
D – i think calling a guy a “dick” or a “cock” is just as offensive as a guy calling a girl a “cunt.” I also think a lot of feminists have attempted to reclaim “cunt” similarly to how we’ve reclaimed “bitch”
My unfeminist thing? I used to (still do at times) say things along the lines of, “i have a hard time being friends with women.” Granted i do but i don’t think through this when i say it or explain it and it automatically puts the focus on there being something wrong with women per se, not my own insecurities and inabilities to connect to women on that level. I dunno, i still have to think this through a lot, or start surrounding my self with women who won’t sell me out the first chance they get…
June 7, 2008 at 7:38 am
D
D – i think calling a guy a “dick” or a “cock” is just as offensive as a guy calling a girl a “cunt.” I also think a lot of feminists have attempted to reclaim “cunt” similarly to how we’ve reclaimed “bitch”
I just see a lot of feminist blogs freely throwing male-genitalia-based insults, while getting angry about uses of “cunt” and “pussy”, etcetera. Same with “bitch” and “bastard”.
My unfeminist thing? I used to (still do at times) say things along the lines of, “i have a hard time being friends with women.” Granted i do but i don’t think through this when i say it or explain it and it automatically puts the focus on there being something wrong with women per se, not my own insecurities and inabilities to connect to women on that level. I dunno, i still have to think this through a lot, or start surrounding my self with women who won’t sell me out the first chance they get…
I don’t think that’s a big deal. Maybe it’s because I have a hard time being friends with men that I say that, but to me, hearing you say that wouldn’t make me think there’s something wrong with the people you’re trying to be friends with.
June 10, 2008 at 6:38 am
Jess
D – if you have enough time to troll feminist comment boards then surely you have enough time to quickly google ‘Poe’s Law’ and any other ‘e-slang’ you don’t understand.
June 11, 2008 at 6:26 am
D
D – if you have enough time to troll feminist comment boards then surely you have enough time to quickly google ‘Poe’s Law’ and any other ‘e-slang’ you don’t understand.
Shame on you for immediately classifying me as a “troll”, simply because I disagree with you, and don’t fit the carefully constructed box you want me to fit in.