I’d like to say thank you to my good friend and avid fan Joel, who kindly wrapped up all of the victim-blaming, slut-shaming tales men tell about rape and packaged it neatly in one well-thought-out, eloquent comment.
So, since I find it a prevalent topic and rape is all over the blogsphere this week…I’d like to address it.
(his words are in italics)
“Sorry, but I do not think men are so barbaric that its such a simple thing like a short skirt that brings on rape.”
“All men ARE capable of rape, yes, but that doesn’t mean all men are rapists.”
vs.
“MEN ARE RAPISTS”
“SHE WANTS MEN TO STOP RAPING WOMEN!”
etc., etc.
Which are we to accept, O enlightened one, as your divine voice of reason? You’ve made your blatantly anti-male attitudes well known at this point – it is no longer an option for you to sit on the fence pretending to be righteously impartial.
Alright. So, exactly where did I say “men are rapists?” Could that be located for me? I don’t think its such a radical idea to point out that MEN ARE THE ONES WHO GENERALLY COMMIT CRIMES OF A SEXUAL NATURE. I do not think all men are rapists. I have never said that in my life. But all men have the capacity, the potential to rape. Of course, on the flip side, I think all women do too…but the way American culture has socialized us, men have a greater potential of rape, sexual assault, sexual harassment, domestic violence, and, actually, in general, all other crimes. Sorry, I don’t care how much you kick and scream, but that’s just what the numbers say. That’s not to say that a woman hasn’t ever molested a child, or raped a man, or sexually harassed a co-worker, or hit her boyfriend. But the overall trend does NOT follow that pattern. In general, men commit those crimes, and women are the victims. That’s the problem. I don’t know why victim-blamers and other anti-feminists can’t process this. Somehow, a simple statement like “men rape women” turns into “all men are rapists, all women are victims, and that’s the end.” Most intelligent people can think abstractly and understand the way data and statistics work…so I don’t understand why it’s this statement that all the slut-shamers get so stuck on. (for some great numbers, check out RAINN)
By your victicrat defintions of “rape” (”I said yes but I meant no!”, “She was giving signals but didn’t say yes”, “I was too drunk and consented without meaning to!”, “I can’t remember!” – precisely *NONE* of which are actual rape by any stretch of the word), it would be easy for these to happen to a guy. “Getting it up”, as it’s cheerfully referred to, is an involuntary reaction. I’m listening to your ignorant physics lesson about unlikely male rape, but it’s all crap – it’s very possible, as you hesitantly admit.
- “I said yes but I meant no!” So, if I say yes because he has a gun to my head, his hands around my throat, threatens me and my family, or other wise coerces me, that’s not rape?
- “She was giving signals but didn’t say yes” Come on, this is a no-brainer. SEX WITHOUT CONSENT (re: a verbal “yes”) is rape!
- “I was too drunk and consented without meaning to!” You cannot get legal consent for sex from a person who is intoxicated.
- “I can’t remember.” Hmmm…so guy gives girl a date rape drug and she blacks out. Not rape? She drinks until blacking out. Not rape? She is otherwise asleep or unconscious. Not rape?
It is obvious to me that all of these examples are RAPE. I’ll take it even further. You say yes to sex. Sex starts. You change your mind half way through. You ask to stop. Person doesn’t stop. It’s rape! When you ignore someone’s wishes about their body and/or have unwanted sexual contact against someone’s will, it becomes rape. If you don’t like that construction, Joel, than guess what? All you have to do is respect a woman’s right to her body, the right to say what goes in her vagina, or who touches her how and when. And that’s how you don’t commit rape. Ta da!
Further more, my “physics lesson” on the rape of a man was simply a comment on the traditional idea of rape–heterosexual intercourse involving the penetration of a vagina by a penis. I was trying to explain why that isn’t the way rape by a woman on a man usually happens. And I never suggested that rape is only such if sexual pleasure is absent. Of course you cannot control how your body responds! That was never suggested or said! I believe what I said was: “if he doesn’t want to have sex, he can just pull out of her vagina.” What that meant was the simple mechanics of penile/vaginal penetration make it difficult for a woman to rape a man in that manner. Sure, it is possible. But it is unlikely. However, take cases like older women (like teachers) having sex with underage students. That too is rape. Or, if a woman put on a strap-on dildo or took some other object and anally penetrated a man. Rape. I would even say unwanted manual or oral stimulation without consent is rape. But just because these scenarios are possible does not mean they are likely. They do not even breach the epidemic of rape committed by men against women and other men.
Anybody can agree that rape is a horrible thing (IMO a capital offense), but the definition of rape is far, far too wide. It should not be used as an excuse for regretful, stupid, or spiteful women. A false accusation of rape can ruin someone’s life, and the way gung-ho feminists treat rape, they’d have everyone believing that rape is as common as sleeping or eating. What a load of hogshit! Let’s convince people that every man is a potential rapist, lurking in the shadows waiting for you to get a little too close. Then POUNCE! That’s a very demented, sad (and paranoid!) world perspective.
Sigh. Time to play the “she called rape out of regret/stupidity/spite card.” Here is where dear old Joel’s true sexist flag waves high and proud: an overall distrust and superiority that he has over us women. Because all dumb sluts who even might suggest they were possibly raped are obviously just trying to cover up their whoreish ways, or so dumb they were seduced by us evil feminazis to believe any sort of contact is rape, or just after money/attention/revenge because deep down, women are all evil. Why else do you think we should stay in the kitchen? This breed of victim-blamers always say “rape is horrible…” but too bad in their world, the only way it happens is some psycho serial rapist breaks into a virtuous virgins house (because if she’s ever had any sexual contact before in her life, heaven knows her vagina is open for business, an all you can eat buffet!) and violently penetrates her at knife point. So, in other words, rape is very very rare.
And I will be the first to admit a false accusation can ruin someone’s life. I understand that. I don’t exactly praise the rare women who completely falsify a rape case simply from the figments of their imagination. But it doesn’t happen all that often, and unfortunately, those few publicized instances where it did has somehow shaped people’s perspective into assuming that when a woman has even mentioned a potential rape, that is the first conclusion everyone jumps to.
And you know what else ruins someone’s life? Rape.
I hope to god that sleeping or eating isn’t as uncommon as rape! I mean, 1 in 6 women will be the victim of rape or attempted rape, and 1 in 33 men will be. If that’s how few eaters and sleepers we have, than damn, we have quite the epidemic of insomnia and starvation!
I have quite a positive world view actually. But sadly, I do not worry about a rapist in every bush or alley. Rather, the “rapists” are generally men you know and trust. I don’t even think men who commit rape are even bad people. They have done something horrible, yes, but most of the time I don’t even think they have realized what they have done. One of my rapists didn’t. Instead, because of our deeply-seated ideas about sexuality, men are socialized into think that normal, healthy sex is rapey sex. (See jackhammering, porn-tastic, goal-oriented, aggressive) And for that, in the words of the great Twisty, I Blame the Patriarchy.
The bottom line is that in order to have “victim blaming” as you whine about, you must first HAVE A VICTIM. False rape accusations are QUITE common, and their acceptance as actual rape represent a very serious violation of human (as you say: generally male) rights! But, as you’ve made quite clear, you are not interested in male rights. Especially for the old, rich, white variety.
I really take issue with Joel, and other victim-blamers, trying to take away a woman’s (or man’s) power to define their own experience. Who the fuck are you to say who is and isn’t a victim? That is just one more way misogynists attempt to strip women of their power. Unless you have been through it, you have no idea what rape feels like, or the aftermath, or how it feels when people try to devalue your experience, or when completely clueless folks feel the need to try and discredit you based on such.
And this whole “false accusation” thing really leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Why is it that those worried about false accusation attack and argue with those who are against sexual violence? Why not criticize the justice system or the way our society treats criminals? Never, as a feminist, have I ever encouraged or supported false accusations. Why do victim-blamers think this is beyond my knowledge; rather, I think the problem lies within how little power women actually possess in a patriarchy, so when feeling powerless, one of the few ways to actually harm a man is a false rape accusation. That does NOT make it right or excuse it in any way, but I wish that everyone would stop pointing the fingers at feminists as the ones to blame for women who make such accusations.
I care very much about men’s rights. As a heterosexual woman, I love men. I love my boyfriend, my best friend (who is a gay male) my father, my little brother. I even loved one of my rapists–even after he raped me! I have great respect for many men, and I have many wonderful friendships with guys. Does that erase the fact that we live in a sexist society? No. I am not in denial that plenty of horrible things happen to men all over the world, even here. But no man has been OPPRESSED based solely on his SEX. Yes, men have been hurt, killed, tortured, treated unfairly, raped, and otherwise denied rights. But not because he has a penis. Compare that to women, who are constantly denied full person ship, now and then, because they are women.
I care about people. It just so happens female persons are the ones who are more likely to be at the bottom of the food chain.
I am not so deluded that I understand where victim-blaming comes from: fear. Joel and others fear that they will be falsely accused of rape, or may unknowingly rape someone, and then have their lives ruined. Well, to that all I have to say it’s pretty easy NOT to rape (or sexually harass or otherwise violate) someone. She doesn’t say yes to sex? Don’t stick it in her. She asks you stop? Stop. She is too drunk to function? Don’t take her to bed. She says no? Then don’t do it. She hasn’t made her wishes clear? ASK. This is much we are asking for…you know, consent takes about a millisecond. I don’t see why this is such a gray area. It’s pretty clear to me how this should work. A huge chunk of rapes could be prevented by these simple steps. Of course, the first step is admitting that women are people and deserve such treatment in the first place, and unfortunately, that will take a much longer post.
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May 5, 2008 at 7:37 pm
Milli Michaels
My husband and I don’t always have the same opinions, but we have similar ones on this topic. I wish to clarify my opinion on this a little more.
I don’t think it’s fair to make a blanket statement that men have “a greater potential of rap, sexual assault, sexual harassment, domestic violence, and actually, in general, all other crimes.” That is most assuredly what the statistics say, hands down. But how many cases with male victims go unreported? Men tend to be socialized in a way that discourages disclosing when this kind of violation happens to them. So, we all know that statistics can be skewed. One night, I got really mad at Joel and bit him. He didn’t report me to DFACs, even though I was clearly in the wrong. It tends to be trivialized when a man is assaulted by a woman. If the shoe had been on the other foot, I would have had a good case against the man, but luckily, he is better at restraining himself than I am. Statistics are a funny thing. They can be wielded as a weapon against all sorts of things, but in the end they tend to suit whoever is doing the research (there’s more money in it). As a psychology minor, the more I learn about the studies the field is based on, the more I see that the studies can offer much less insight than they’re given credit for. My advice is to not blindly accept statistics and question the bias.
On rape definitions …
1. “I said yes but meant no!” – In the moment, some women are persuaded to say yes, even when they might not ultimately want to. This persuasion has happened without the influence of a gun, knife, or display of physical dominance. Do we call “being talked into sex” as being convinced to say “yes” when you were initially going to say “no?” It’s in the same vein of a doctor that convinces a person to get surgery. The doctor may believe the surgery will ultimately benefit the patient, and plus he gets paid. It’s win-win, right? But what if it’s not completely necessary and the person doesn’t want surgery? So, the person decides to go along with the surgery, and then after the fact, he realizes that he didn’t want to have it in the first place and shouldn’t have. At that point, do you say that the doctor was wrong or the patient was?
2. I think that the notion here that sex without an affirmative answer to the question “Will you consent to engaging sexual activities and intercourse with me?” being rape. While yes, just because a person is enjoying “making out” or something doesn’t mean that s/he wants to go “all the way,” and this alone should not be considered an affirmative answer. I guess the lesson here is that men, if they want to be completely positive they’re not raping a woman, should ask that question.
3. People are responsible for what they do when intoxicated. When I’ve been at parties, I haven’t witnessed sober guys circling drunk girls like sharks to get them in bed. It’s been my experience that both parties are impaired. So… essentially… both people are victims of rape from each other because both were drunk. This seems like a rape law that should be reformed somehow. The decisions you make when you’re drunk are still valid. I decided to drive drunk one night and got a DUI. There is no defense for me to say, “I was drunk and didn’t know what I was doing, so I shouldn’t have to go to jail.” But boy, do I wish I wasn’t facing $3000 in fines and possible jail time. I can’t say, “I didn’t mean to drive, but I was drunk so I couldn’t make the right decision.” It was even a one time mistake, but it’s a charge that will affect my record for the rest of my life. I had never driven after even having 2 drinks before that night, and the one time I did, I got arrested. It was my fault though, I knew all the risks of driving after a few drinks even if I had impaired myself too much to make the right decision.
4. Just because a girl “can’t remember” doesn’t mean that she was passed out; I know that there are things that I have done but don’t remember at all… I think that this snakes back to people being completely sober.
It seems to me like most of this boils down to males and females being completely educated as to how we define rape in our society. I have had the mantra beat into my head in public schools exactly what rape and being sexually abused are. It’s common sense that no one should have sex with another person at gun point. It’s also common sense that it’s wrong to have sex with someone who is unconscious. On my soapbox, I like to talk about people being responsible for themselves. With education about what is and isn’t rape, people can know what not to do, and if there is any confusion where a situation is headed, they can know what they need to clarify. There is no class in middle school that tells the kids that kissing doesn’t mean that their partner wants to have sex.
Everyone has the right to define his or her own experience, that’s true and nice and good. Unfortunately, we can’t each define the individual laws we live under. It’s a person’s choice to perceive her/himself as a victim, and it’s no arbiter of right and wrong’s job to do it for him/her. (And just for kicks, it should be noted by definition by rape laws that most married people have been raped at some point- how often do you suppose that married couples get drunk or otherwise intoxicated and have sex? Those people have “been through” rape by our definition and know how it feels).
I just think that the laws leave a lot of room for unfair blame to be put on involved parties, and I think that the lack of education is the best source of blame. We don’t live in a world where we can treat people with kid gloves, so they need to come off. We need comprehensive sex education and to take the “taboo” status off of sex.
PS- I don’t think that the possibility of a false accusation is what worries Joel. It’s nothing he will have to worry about seeing as how we’ve both only been with each other. He’s a really good, responsible man, and one that is a wonderful partner. He believes in justice, and while he can be very abrasive and caustic, I think he just wants to shed light on the other side.
May 5, 2008 at 10:00 pm
goingtomontreal
Hi Milli–
First off I am going to say that you sound like a pretty smart gal, so I am going to highly suggest that you get out of that marriage as quick as you can. Doesn’t it bother you that your husband is out on the internet harassing female bloggers all day? It would be one thing if he was actually trying to engage me in an intelligent discussion about these issues, but instead he’d rather just resort to calling me “stupid” and using tactics like repeating the submission of the same comment over and over to try and upset/scare/bug/anger me. Now, if my boyfriend were doing something like this, I’d be pretty pissed. And shedding light on the other side? Please, it’s not like his side is that rare! It’s what I deal with in the real world every single day. So he can cut the Bobby Do-Gooder shit.
Secondly, it sounds like we have the same ideas about change, just different ways of getting to them. I also want comprehensive sex education, and taking away taboo, and also letting men identify as victims without social scorn (as well as the ability to show emotion, nurture, and overall be gentle and loving and enact otherwise “feminine” virtues without the fear of ridicule).
I never asked to be treated with kid gloves. What I want is for people to understand rape.
The whole drunk driving scenario is really…um…confusing to me. First of all, I never said that all drunk sex IS rape–I was pointing out that drunken sex with a woman is rape from a LEGAL standpoint. I am still unsure my complete feelings on this, mostly because of the whole “both parties being drunk” thing…. And I realize that many people who commit actual rape are not sober dudes looking to score on a drunk girl (though, I don’t deny this probably happens–dudes buying/giving chicks drinks to loosen her up…so to speak) but if those who feel they have been raped have to “take responsibility” for their actions, why not those who did the raping? It’d be like if during your night of your DUI you hit a drunken fellow on the sidewalk. Him being drunk doesn’t also erase the fact that what you were doing was wrong, too. I feel that many people want to use the “she was drunk” excuse to erase all responsibility from said-rapist…and that’s not fair.
Now–the stats. I am assuming you read my whole piece since you broke it down quite nicely, but part of it slipped through the cracks. Even though women commit violence against men (reported and unreported) it is not the overall trend–PLUS since women are the oppressed sex in a patriarch, this is the violence a feminist takes issue with. Usually when men are the victim of violence, it is at the hands of another man. And yes, I know the numbers are skewed, but even social scientists who predict what numbers are NOT being reported are not as epidemic as Mens Rights Activists and other anti-feminists would have you think.
May 5, 2008 at 10:27 pm
Joel
Oh and I totally agree, being married to me is like hell on wheels! But at least you know what you’re getting.
After all, Kacie, we can’t all be as well adjusted, mature and content with ourselves as little miss “I photoshop devil horns on myself and whine about my problems”. Maybe someday I’ll get tired of making fun of tard-butts on the net, but honestly I only feel like seriously debating with those that are worth my time and effort. (That doesn’t include you.) Prove to me that you aren’t just a lunatic spouter of Twisty Tard wisdom, if you dare, and we can talk. Until then, just keep calling me “sexist” and I’ll keep amusing myself poking you with a stick.
May 5, 2008 at 11:00 pm
goingtomontreal
Um…ok?
The more I read your comments, the more I realize what a ignorant idiot you are. I have just been deleting the bulk of your comments because they are worthless–and where exactly did I say in those 2000+ words that you were just “sexist” and I dismissed your arguments, like you have with mine over and over? Instead of fixating on my devil-horn photoshop job (which took a whopping 10 minutes max and was done in the spirit of irony and humor) and my so-called “whining” about my problems (how does one “whine” via text?) you have yet to actually address my actual content, just dismissing it as feminazi fodder, and resorting to calling me names, which last time I checked, wasn’t exactly top-notch debate skills.
So why don’t you prove to ME you actually can address my content and argue in a way that does not resort to name-calling, assumptions, patronizing language, or simple dismals then maybe I will take you seriously. Or stop falling back on the oh-so-original timeless myths that misogynists use over and over.
And what makes you think I would love nothing more than to sit in your presence and have your benevolent and infinite wisdom doled out to me in person? Sorry, but anyone who feels the need to just harass (or like you said–amusing yourself with poking me with a stick) is not anyone I have any desire to meet.
Go find a hobby and stop showing your ass all over my blog.
May 5, 2008 at 11:53 pm
Chris
I like photoshop…I think the graphic is neat and unique…heaven forbid a blog have a personality…that would be…just awful. I am glad he finally admitted he’s not well-adjusted, mature or content with himself though. Step in the right direction.
Also, I’m pretty sure tard-butt isn’t a word. I tried it in Scrabble. It didn’t work. Sadness. People who disagree must all suffer from the horribly traumatic and debilitating mental order of mental retardation…interesting…
I’m a pretty lunatic spouter of Twisty “Tard” wisdom. I saw that Twisty Revolution website and they don’t seem to be hating really anything…they just want a world where people aren’t encouraged to conform to a set of overall cultural standards. Then again, if you read the letter of the law as it were on their website, I guess you would think they were anti-marriage, children, whatnot, etc…but if you read things in the spirit by which they are meant to be read, you’d see that they just want a world free of cultural standardized formats…pipe dream, definitely, but still kinda pretty to think some people like to shake up the world and make it more exciting.
Zanzibar!
May 6, 2008 at 12:00 am
Amelia
Wow Joel sounds like a creep. Anyone who calls you names (little miss “I photoshop devil horns on myself and whine about my problems”.) isn’t worth your time. Dump him. Forget him.
May 6, 2008 at 12:17 am
Carly L.
Alright, so I feel like jumping into the fray with all of you – hope you don’t mind.
Kacie, you’ll find that you’ll never have a constructive conversation with a man like Joel until you learn to stop letting his deliberate attempts to bother you, well…bother you. Suffice to say that resorting to name calling only makes you both look ridiculous, and it certainly doesn’t inspire confidence in your rhetoric.
Rape is horrifying – no one is denying that. Men and women both are capable of raping and being victims of rape, no one is denying that. Beyond those two facts, I see a whole lot of BS of the semantic variety flying around this argument. The specifics of what qualifies as a rape, the moral value of rapists, and the extenuating circumstances that give dimension to both are utterly irrelevant to the point I believe is at hand.
So long as you shoulder the mantle of the victim, Kacie, you will never free yourself from oppression. Furthermore, you make yourself a hypocrite by “blaming the patriarchy” and then in perfect turnabout claiming that “no man has been OPPRESSED based solely on his SEX”.
If you’d like to suggest that women and men are equal, you’re doing your gender a disservice by searching for change through retributive policy. Men are not conscienceless animals, and women are not cowering mice. Going so far as to make such ignorant generalizations as ‘all men have the capacity to rape’ and ‘women are much more common victims’ are only enforcing the purported social constructs which you so soundly decry. Instead, champion education and trust women to take responsibilities for their own bodies by choosing not to drink when it’s potentially dangerous (for instance, a party where they don’t know anybody). Have faith that there are men of honor and principles, who find the idea of raping a woman (or a man) abhorrent without the benefit of a probable conviction hanging over their heads.
If life as a victim serves you well, then by all means, carry on. To each his own. But you might consider divorcing yourself from the feminist movement, because last time I checked – feminism was about empowerment. Not about placing blame.
May 6, 2008 at 1:48 am
goingtomontreal
Carly–
Read my post. Actually read it.
I do not feel like repeating ever single word I have said.
And since when does talking about my experiences with rape become wearing the victim mantle? Um, I actually have taken many steps to recovery when it comes to my rape experiences, including professional help. See, simply mentioning a past rape somehow is twisted into “proud victimship” which implies I use my so-called victim status as an excuse, something I have never done. Again, a nice devalue.
And you know what? Joel does bother me. My inbox is flooded with his vile comments, he has been harassing me for days, calling me all sorts of names and so on. I’m pretty sure it would begin to bother most people. I have deleted the bulk of his comments, and then addressed the only one that contained actual (albeit, poor) content.
I think you need to read up on oppression. “Blaming the patriarchy” is not oppressing to men–I am blaming as system that privileges men, who are the ones in power in our society. That is not oppression.
I am an empowered woman–and I believe the empowerment of ALL women–including victims. No where did I suggest that victims should sit around and cry and do nothing about the violence committed about them. Simply talking about rape and trying to heal is not the opposite of empowerment–and neither is trying to stop rape.
May 6, 2008 at 8:53 pm
Carly L.
I did read your post – unless you’re talking about another post, to which I must confess ignorance. Link, perhaps?
I think there’s a difference between talking about your own experiences and referencing them as a bludgeon to combat wayward members of the patriarchy. Don’t get me wrong – I find Joel’s digs irksome too; anybody with a brainstem and a basic understanding about fallacies in argument would. What I mean by saying you shouldn’t let him bother you is that you should really make a point to understand that he’s trying his damndest to piss you off, and you’re letting him. The surest way to thwart his intentions, so to speak, would be to do the figurative ’smile and nod.’ For example, you could respond to his oversimplifications with some ironic blandishment like ‘You know you’re right Joel, I was just angry cause I was riding the cotton pony this week’. You’re never going to convert him, so you might as well not give him any more ammo.
As for reading up on the subject of oppression – I strongly suggest you stop bandying around the buzz words your women’s studies professors spoon fed you and crack open a book or two yourself. If you’d done half the research you claim you have, you’d know that feminism itself is paradoxical without the unifying theme of equality, wherein all people could be first classified as human (therefore, fallible in a dizzying variety of ways – the capacity for felonious behavior only one of them) before being assigned a gender, a color, or a class. Patriarchy, in case you didn’t know, is “a form of social organization in which the father is the supreme authority in the family, clan, or tribe and descent is reckoned in the male line, with the children belonging to the father’s clan or tribe,” and therefore it is a system defined by masculine power. To blame the Patriarchy is to blame ‘the man.’ How do you suppose that saying came about, anyway?
Furthermore, to assume you have no power or that you are powerless as a direct result of someone else’s (be it a social system or an individual) doing is pretty much the standard definition of a victim. And on top of that, if you’re a person of such weak constitution that you let other people (of the strictly male persuasion or not) determine your power, who’s to say you deserve empowerment in the first place? It’s not relevant to your argument, but it might interest you to know that you’re not debating with a like-minded egalitarian here. I feel that if you determine your worth to be so low that you let yourself be controlled, then you deserve no better, but that’s a personal perspective.
Every moment of a rape, every moment of subjugation and violence at another person’s hands is a moment when a human being is a victim. It’s a terrible and a sad thing, and should be dealt with the amount of gravity it is due.
Every moment beyond that immediate victimization is a moment where you have a choice to remain the person you were in that time where you truly had no control, or you can move beyond that person by healing and growth. It’s only a good thing that you’ve sought help for your negative experiences, and as much as one faceless internet entity can do for another, I support you in all you’ve done to heal.
But I tell you what, Kacie. Ghandi and Martin Luther King Jr. sure as hell didn’t walk around talking about how angry they were at the Man to bring about the change they thought was necessary.
May 6, 2008 at 9:15 pm
goingtomontreal
Carly–
I am still confused about what you are saying. Using my experiences and talking about them–how is that wrong? How is that a bad idea? Yes, my experiences with rape are one of the things that have shaped my ideas about activism. I am unsure what point you are trying to make here.
Second–it really aggravates me beyond comprehension when people assume that I somehow was just spoon-fed ideas about feminism and “buzzwords.” Actually, I have been in a total of ONE women’s studies class, but it was focused on music videos and our professor was from the music department and we addressed gender theory very very little. I love how everyone assumes I have never “cracked open a book” and I am just a brainless parrot who is brainwashed into these ideas.
I never said that blaming the patriarchy is not blaming men. But it is NOT the same as oppressing them. That was what I was pointing out. Oppression is the systematic denial of rights from the less powerful class by the powerful class. So therefor, me simply pointing out sexist problems brought forth by living in a sexist culture is not oppressive to men.
And I never said I wasn’t pushing for equality. I do not dream of a matriarchy, or white slavery, or the persecution of religious people. All I want is a society where everyone is treated equally–devoid of oppression. This blog is what I use to discuss problems I observe that are of an oppressive nature.
“Every moment of a rape, every moment of subjugation and violence at another person’s hands is a moment when a human being is a victim. It’s a terrible and a sad thing, and should be dealt with the amount of gravity it is due.
Every moment beyond that immediate victimization is a moment where you have a choice to remain the person you were in that time where you truly had no control, or you can move beyond that person by healing and growth. It’s only a good thing that you’ve sought help for your negative experiences, and as much as one faceless internet entity can do for another, I support you in all you’ve done to heal.”
I am still confused about what exactly you are trying to communicate. I don’t want to move “beyond the person I was” seeing as, well, my rapes are part of my experience I can’t erase. It sounds like to me you are suggesting that strength only lies in erasure of those experiences, and essentially the erasure of the person who lived through those experiences. And, furthermore, if I dwell on those experiences, I am somehow a person, not in control. If this is not what you meant, then please clarify.
I have a real problem with anyone telling anyone else how to heal, and while I thank you for your support, I also to an extent fell judged. As a survivor, I would never tell another survivor how to heal and deal with their issues–and I would never pass judgment on the way that they use said traumas.
Finally–I never ever claimed to be anywhere near the level of Ghandi or MLK Jr; to even try and use that as an argument is just…erroneous.
May 6, 2008 at 10:18 pm
Carly L.
My point was that you aren’t wielding a blunted sword. It’s one thing to talk about your experiences, to encourage education and the disambiguation of what rape is, who it happens to and who it’s committed by. It is something else entirely when it’s used as a soapbox – a position of assumed superior knowledge or understanding, for instance – the pointy end of the stick you fight against ‘victim-blamers’ with.
There is no standard form to which people who have suffered from rape need to adhere when discussing their experiences, you are right, and I didn’t mean to suggest as much. I object to your method on a technical scale because you’re shamelessly wielding the ‘you couldn’t understand without experiencing what I have’ card, which smacks very clearly of bias and is ineffective in gaining support or understanding. I’m criticizing your methods here, not your content. However, when it comes to content, I’m somewhat alarmed at the idea that anyone who has suffered what you have would be so blase as to use their pain as a weapon, or if not a weapon then a tool, to gain the upper hand in an argument. I find it alarming because I read a certain smugness in the utility you’ve put your traumas to, an “I know how it feels, which means that I’m a greater authority than you will ever be so long as you’re never raped.” I’m sorry if it bothers you that I say it, but I find that to be just a little sick.
I’m also sorry if I aggravated you with the suggestion that your ideas were adopted from other educated people – but it doesn’t do you much good to admit the opposite was true. If you’ve been accused of brainwashing or spoon-feeding before, you might consider why. Arguing with recycled words and catch-phrases (buzzwords, natch) is simply lazy arguing. It’s letting the words carry the meaning for you, rather than your thoughts, which is why it’s understandable that people might begin to suspect you’re just repeating what you’ve heard instead of giving you credit for having an original thought.
If you can only define oppression as the active removal of rights by a stronger party from a weaker party, then you technically can’t claim to be oppressed as a woman, as currently our legal rights are effectively equal. Women have suffrage, the right to own land and property, the right to file for divorce, etc. However, if you consider sexist oppression to be a more abstract thing, as with the depiction of women in the media as nothing more than sex objects (to offer an example), then how is assigning comprehensive blame for the depiction and treatment of women in our society to the men of the Patriarchy any different? Are women not also responsible? Do women not buy beauty magazines, starve themselves and alter themselves in the pursuit of the female “ideal”? Furthermore – what purpose and point is served by the assignation of blame? If the patriarchy is truly the source of many/most of womankind’s ills, blaming the big P only goes so far as to identify the source. What then? Blaming the patriarchy is an exercise in anger, aggression – and most importantly, futility. It also dances dangerously close to making men as a gender responsible for and beholden to the wrongs suffered by some women at the hands of some men. It simply isn’t right.
Your rapes will always be a part of you, but they don’t need to define who you are today. I can’t tell you how to heal, and I’d never be so bold as to try, but as someone who has healed from similar damage, I know that an essential part of healing is the ability to put away the hurt and the anger. At some point, carrying it around for too long only does you more damage. You can and will never forget your past, but it doesn’t need to color your future.
And finally, you don’t have to be a Ghandi or MLK Jr. The point I was making is that they are perfect examples of effective activists who didn’t think the only way to win support was through lighted torch and pitch-fork.
May 6, 2008 at 11:25 pm
goingtomontreal
I have never let my rape experiences define my entire person–this is a specialized blog where I focus on mainly feminist topics, so of course that is the only facet of my person my readers (who do not have the pleasure of knowing me in real life) are exposed to. Furthermore, I think when it comes to arguing against victim-blaming, one of the main components of victim-blamers’ arguments is the presumption to know what it feels like to go through something like rape. And, even though I use that “sword” I have never claimed to be the voice of all victims or anything along those lines–I simply have used my survivor status to try and bring that view to the table.
How can you tell me in one breath that you don’t want to tell me how to heal, and then a few lines later do just that: “I know that an essential part of healing is the ability to put away the hurt and the anger. At some point, carrying it around for too long only does you more damage. You can and will never forget your past, but it doesn’t need to color your future.”
You have dealt with it your way, and I mine.
I am actually not a very angry person. I get passionate about the issues I feel strongly about, but I live a happy and full life.
Finally, I will make sure never to “recycle” words again! Look for my next post to be in a completely new language no one has ever heard of!!!
May 7, 2008 at 2:35 am
TimM
Being concerned about rape AND about false accusations is not an either/or propostion. What is woefully lacking from the public discourse about rape and false accusations is balance. Somewhere in the midst of the smoke generated by the invective, the truth – far too nuanced to appeal to fanatics – has been discarded. Two propositions are eminently reasonable and are not inconsistent: First, it is imperative to appreciate the concern that false accusations not dominate the discourse at the expense of dismissing prejudices true rape victims still face in certain respects. Second, removing false accusations from the discourse and dismissing the victimization of falsely accused men as a “myth” is not merely dishonest but morally grotesque. That position denigrates innocent men, substitutes factually incorrect mantras for truth, and is, in fact, as hurtful as the ludicrous assertion that “she asked for it.”
In “Until Proven Innocent,” the widely praised (praised even by the New York Times, which the book skewers) and painstaking study of the Duke Lacrosse non-rape case, Stuart Taylor and Professor K.C. Johnson explain that the exact number of false claims is elusive but “[t]he standard assertion by feminists that only 2 percent of rape claims are false, which traces to Susan Brownmiller’s 1975 book “Against Our Will,” is without empirical foundation and belied by a wealth of empirical data. These data suggest that at least 9 percent and probably closer to half of all rape claims are false . . . .” (Page 374.) The authors’ conclusion seems credible because, among other things, it doesn’t hide from the uncertainty. Yet the two percent mantra is repeated in the feminist rape milieu with cult-like devotion.
The crime of false reporting of rape is unique among transgressions punished by law because virtually all of the public discourse about it is dominated by persons who insist it is not a serious threat to the public (what other crime shares that distinction?), and some go so far as to suggest that the very act of focusing on it is misogynistic because it is harmful to women who might have legitimate rape claims. Sexual assault counselors, feminist legal scholars, and certain women’s groups routinely refer to false accusations of rape as one of the so-called rape “myths.” We really need to remove this crime from the gender-politicized sexual assault milieu where it is burdened by agendas because the objectively verifiable facts show it IS a problem.
Sadly, when this crime — whose victims are almost exclusively male — is discussed, it is almost always considered through a gynocentric lens that blinks at the harm it causes innocent men. For example, the reports of false accusations by mainstream news outlets, which take on a surreal cookie-cutter redundancy, invariably report the police or the judge chiding the false accuser for the “real” harm she’s caused — not to the man wrongly accused or other potential men she might accuse, but to phantom, even unborn women who might be less willing to “come forward” with legitimate rape claims because of the false accuser’s lie. It is not socially acceptable to discuss false rape accusations as a widespread problem for men that merits serious attention because such a view does not conform to the feminist metanarrative about sexual assault.
I say, let’s start treating both rape and false accusations seriously, and let’s not push either out of the public discourse. We don’t have to do that, and if we’re intellectually honest we don’t.
May 7, 2008 at 2:33 pm
Joel
“If you can only define oppression as the active removal of rights by a stronger party from a weaker party, then you technically can’t claim to be oppressed as a woman, as currently our legal rights are effectively equal. Women have suffrage, the right to own land and property, the right to file for divorce, etc. However, if you consider sexist oppression to be a more abstract thing, as with the depiction of women in the media as nothing more than sex objects (to offer an example), then how is assigning comprehensive blame for the depiction and treatment of women in our society to the men of the Patriarchy any different? Are women not also responsible? Do women not buy beauty magazines, starve themselves and alter themselves in the pursuit of the female “ideal”? Furthermore – what purpose and point is served by the assignation of blame? If the patriarchy is truly the source of many/most of womankind’s ills, blaming the big P only goes so far as to identify the source. What then? Blaming the patriarchy is an exercise in anger, aggression – and most importantly, futility. It also dances dangerously close to making men as a gender responsible for and beholden to the wrongs suffered by some women at the hands of some men. It simply isn’t right.”
This is perfectly sound reasoning. I’d like to see these questions answered, as they were not addressed in the response. The overall tone of this blog is nothing more than fear and anger borne of stereotypical thought. The mind that constructed the argument above is one I can respect, as an equal and a friend.
If you want to complain about oppression, move to Rwanda.
May 7, 2008 at 4:15 pm
goingtomontreal
Joel and Carly–
Forgive me for not addressing the whole argument, I was so caught up in the other ones.
Actually, even if women have so-called full legal rights, it does not mean we have full SOCIAL rights. And we actually don’t…there are no federal laws against sex discrimination in the workplace (ERA, anyone?) and there are other laws…partial birth abortion bans, anti-gay union legislation, domestic violence issues, divorce laws, parental consent, abstinence-only sex ed, and the list goes on. It is not simply “the right to vote and own property.”
And, again, social issues like stereotyping in the media, double standards, victim-blaming mentality, mothering and childcare, and so on and so on are other things I am interested in.
The “move to Rwanda” argument is not a valid one, sorry. Just because things are worth off in one situation does not somehow better the former one. The whole “worse off” argument is just an immature strategy to use. If a friend of mine had mono, but I said “try having cancer, then you can complain!” it does not make their mono less shitty.
June 18, 2008 at 9:40 pm
Boycott Days Inn « The Feminist Texican
[...] lawsuit against Day is now on appeal to the Georgia Supreme Court, in part because of the victim-blaming actions of the trial court judge. Judge Phillip Brown, despite a Georgia rape shield law, compelled [...]