Somedays I hate people so much I can’t stand it. And what’s worse, is some of the worst slut-shamers are fellow women, the one’s whose rights I am constantly trying to defend.
I have been wondering, today, why girls slut-shame rape victims, and I have come to few concluscions:
1. Acceptance from teh boyz: In a case like today’s, especially, when the maybe-suspects are a fraternity, I think lots of girls, especially those in the greek system, feel the need to rush to the boys’ defense in order to show that they are not like those other scary girls who cry rape.
2. (and this came from the RandB boards, so its not all my orginal thought, I think?) Episodes like this hit too close to home for some of my fellow UGA sisters. Go to a party. Get shit-faced. Don’t remember anything. Wake up missing underwear, have some bruises. May have ”hooked up” with a guy, but didn’t really want to. Well, if you are drunk enough to blackout, you cannot give consent and therefore were raped. And I think a lot of girls don’t want to face this truth. Rape is a mystical, uber-taboo and scary subject, fodder for life-time movies and therapy sessions. So, to cover up personal pain, they slut-shame so then these sorts of things won’t become rape, and they won’t have to face they too were raped.
3. (follows closely with number 2) They think it can’t happen to them: when this sort of thing happens, it shakes the crap out of everyone because we like to think here in Athens (or wherever) we live in a nice little bubble where bad things can’t penetrate and no one gets hurt. Well, guess what, ladies? It does. And it’s more likely to happen in your bedroom with someone close to you or at a party with some acquantices than it is in a dark alley.
I think the sooner we face the music and talk about rape and stop relying on slut-shaming, the better. This girl has done NOTHING wrong. She went to see a doctor. They filed a police report. There is not malevolent in those actions.
Sometimes I feel like everyone around me is taking crazy pills.
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April 25, 2008 at 2:52 pm
John
Hey. I’ve been following the thread on the R&B comments, and find your posts very interesting. I want to see what your thoughts are on this, though.
In your posts, you seem to have the view that a more or less sober guy purposely took advantage of a drunken girl. My question is, what if the guy was equally as drunk as her (IE as horny and unthinking as some commenters are claiming the girl was)? Would you still consider that rape, or would that blur the line somewhat?
Now, I’m not implying this happened at all; I’m just curious if that would make any difference to you?
April 25, 2008 at 4:36 pm
goingtomontreal
Hi John.
Thanks for stopping by!
Now, I never implied that a sober guy took intentional advantage of a drunk girl. I think its in the realm of possibilities, but I also think when it comes to being drunk, if you commit a crime, then you are still responsible for your actions. So, if he was drunk and had sex with her without consent, yes it’s still rape. For example, if a drunk driver runs over a drunk pedastrian, the drunk driver is still at fault because he committed the crime. Legally, intoxication makes it so you can’t give consent, but it doesn’t relieve the person in the wrong of responsibility. In the eyes of the law, rape is unconsented sexual penetration, and since the man is always going to be the penetrator, he is the one doing the raping, therefore the one with the burden of the crime.
I think it’s reasonable to say a man cannot not engage in intercourse if he is too drunk to give consent simply because of phyisological reasons. That’s not to say that men can’t have sex that they regret or whatever, but, as our physical capabilities dictate, a man is the one “in control” of sex, ie the penetration and so on. A penis entering a vagina is an intrustion on a personhood–when a woman gives consent, obviously not, but when she doesn’t or can’t, I don’t care how unthinking or drunk or whatever the man is, IT IS RAPE.
April 25, 2008 at 11:15 pm
Ashley
Man, people treat survivors like shit. Damn.
The comments from your fellow students are so deeply fucked up… At the same time, I’ve heard them over and over again, so in a way I’m not surprised.
As for John’s comment, I think I will gouge my eyes out with a pencil if I have to have that argument one. more. time.
I worked as a facilitator for a court-ordered batterers’ group, and do you know how many times the guys told me that they did what they did because they were drunk, and shouldn’t be held responsible?
Well… How high can you count?
April 27, 2008 at 5:57 pm
Kristin
“So, if he was drunk and had sex with her without consent, yes it’s still rape.”
I think the point that some of the people at the RandB board are trying to make (however cruelly and inappropriate) is that the girl in this case does not remember whether or not she consented. Is it rape if I get drunk, consent to sex, and in the morning have no memory of it and my panties are missing? I consented, I didn’t so no, so why would the man stop? But I don’t remember it, so all of a sudden it’s rape.
Don’t get me wrong..I am totally on the side of the woman in these cases..I am one! But, I think this case in particular has a lot of “holes” in it, and that is what makes people upset. This woman does not know what happened, the police haven’t released the results of the rape examination, and yet these allegations have been made public and stand to ruin the reputation of an entire group of young men who may have had nothing to do with the incident.
April 27, 2008 at 11:08 pm
goingtomontreal
Kristin–
I understand why people have issues with the “holes” in her story, but that does not justify jumping to the concluscions that a) she is a slut who wanted to have sex and is crying rape to cover it up or b) she is a dumb little girl who can’t remember her own slutty antics. I never actually said that she was DEFINATLEY raped or what happened–I was not there, I cannot speak for her. But what I do know is that the prevailing attitude of people, on our campus and everywhere, is that rape victims are somehow to blame or responsible for what happened to her. And, furthermore, she didn’t go to the cops with the intent of ruining the reputation of an entire group of young men–she went to a medical center, who are then obligated to report any rape kits they give to the police.
I have said it once, I’ve said it a million times. I care more about making sure this girl is ok than about the possible ruination of some boys reputation. If they cared so much about their reputation in the first place, they would have not allowed an enviorment for this sort of thing to happen–yes, this woman chose to drink underage and go to this party, but they could have denied alcohol to her, ect. ect. I hate how people never want to hold men responsible for anything. Also, I imagine in a world where we demistify rape and make it a more visible crime, where victims aren’t afraid to come out, and men who are falsley accused or just somehow accidently wrapped up in it will not have to wear a scarlet letter for the rest of their lives.
Finally, even if she said yes while she was drunk, a drunk person cannot give consent. So even if she said yes, it was rape.
April 28, 2008 at 6:08 am
aniche
look, people in the world would always love to side with the victims except in the cases of rape. when it comes to rape it’s always a question about who points out what the girl did wrong first.people blame the girl’s parents or her outfit but just tend to dismiss the perpetrators as just a horny guy.
November 14, 2008 at 10:18 pm
Mirjam
By being overly biased in favour of young women who can’t look after themselves, get drunk, have drunk sex with another drunk person, can’t bear looking into the mirror the next morning, don’t want to take any responsibility for their mistake & therefore blame the guy they had sex with claiming that he had raped them, you’re not doing the feminist movement any favour: as a woman and a feminist, I would not want to be associated with that kind of irresponsible and childish chicks you think women are entitled to be, blaming others for everything that goes wrong in their lives, including having had sex without particularly wanting it. If I do something although I don’t particularly want to do it, it is my own responsibility and if I realise that it was a mistake, I have to deal with it, but certainly not by claiming that the guy who participated in the love making is responsible for my inability to make up my mind. Saying that a guy who slept with a drunken girl without her particularly wanting it and giving her explicit consent just raped her is plain nonsense. How many times in your life did you have a sexual experience without particularly wanting it or without particularly enjoying it let alone without giving your partner your explicit consent? Never? Like most people, I’ve had a few of them and sometimes I felt a bit dirty afterwards. But saying that the guy therefore raped me? That would be utter nonsense. Like it or not, but sex has got a lot to do with unspoken signals, with body language and blurred emotions and only very little things are communicated verbally during the love making process. Where do you draw the line between love making, sex and rape? And who tells you that it’s always the guy who is in charge? Could it not be the case that the girl, despite being drunk, absolutely fancies the guy whereas he doesn’t really enjoy it, just sleeps with her because he doesn’t want to hurt her feelings? Do boys not have any feelings at all? Can they not be in doubt about having sex with a girl? Can they not feel unfulfilled or dirty after it? It is highly unfair to say that it’s always him who commits the crime, because he has to penetrate her. You’re using the fact that you’re female in order to secure any rights you desire. I don’t think it’s fair and I strongly hope there’s other women who share my views as well, because your sort of feminism creates a generation of irresponsible girls who refuse to learn that you cannot always look for a scapegoat when you’ve done something you regret…
November 15, 2008 at 1:49 am
goingtomontreal
If you are someone who has been raped, you will see there is a difference between “getting drunk and having some unwanted sex” (which in my mind, is still rape) and being raped. And guess what? Both times I was raped, alcohol was not involved. Oh, and you are forgetting that you cannot legally consent to sex while drunk.
Finally, it’s not about teaching girls to shirk responsibility. It’s about education both men and women about boundaries and how to avoid blurring them.
And the “irresponsible” arguement is a slippery slope. First it’s she shouldn’t get drunk. Then it’s she shouldn’t have been wearing that. Next it’s she shouldn’t be going out alone. And finally, it’s she shouldn’t have possessed a vagina.
November 16, 2008 at 1:37 pm
Mirjam
No, my dear, you’re jumping to conclusions. Let me explain what I was trying to say:
The fact that there is a big difference between getting drunk and having some unwanted sex and being raped ist exactly my point, and I find it extremely unfortunate that you do not seem to make such a distinction. Read your sentence again: you first state that there is a difference between getting drunk and having some unwanted sex and being raped and then you’re contradicting yourself by making your comment in the brackets: getting drunk and having some unwanted sex is still rape, which actually means in your mind there is no such difference as pointed out in your main sentence.
You then go on telling me that in your personal rape experiences no alcohol had been involved. Why are you telling me this? Did I ever imply that every woman who gets raped is behaving in an irresponsible manner? No, I said that if women do behave in an irresponsible manner they should not be able to abuse the legal system, claiming that the guy they slept with had raped them! Unfortunately, this happens far too often, and I don’t think that women who do this deserve to be defended by feminists. Feminism should not be about claiming the right for women to be irresponsible and blaming the guys whenever something goes wrong, it should not be about victimising women, feminism should be about justice for women, no more and no less than that.
I do consider rape a very serious offence against an innocent person, but I do have a problem with how you, and some contries’ laws define rape. See, I’m not forgetting that some people think one cannot consent to sex while drunk, I beg to differ.
First, because it is very difficult to draw a line between having had some alcohol but still knowing what you’re doing, being a bit drunk and being absolutely pissed not knowing what you’re doing at all. While it is difficult to draw such a line for yourself, it might be even more difficult for an other person to decide how drunk you are. Now considering the fact that alcohol is often involved when people are having sex, and I’m talking about lovely, romantic and consensual sex, men are under the constant risk of committing an offence when they’re having sex with a woman. How can he know how drunk she is? How can he know what’s really going on in her head if he’s just met her? Be honest with yourself: is this your main concern when you’re having sex? How drunk your partner is? And if you’re having a good time but you know that your partner is too drunk, would you stop? Should there be a legal alcohol limit for sex, comparable to many countries’ alcohol limits for driving? I mean, if you have a law, you also need to set clear rules in order to protect people from committing the offence.
Calling drunk sex rape in my view is mocking real rape victims, and it is criminalising (sometimes problematic) interpersonal human interaction. By the way, you want to know about peoples’ privileges: due to my work, I’m ivolved in criminal justice matters & I’ve seen it far too often that young men have got into troubles in their social and professional lives because of such unjustified rape claims.
November 16, 2008 at 5:20 pm
goingtomontreal
It seems I am repeating myself over and over.
Rape = unwanted, unconsented sexual contact.
If you are intoxicated, then you cannot give consent.
Therefore, unwanted, drunk sex = rape (IN A TECHNICAL SENSE).